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Aptavani-8
There Is No Pain for Atma Swaroop
Questioner: Now, whether a man goes to heaven (swarg) or into hell (nark), even then, does the Atma not still remain separate from happiness (sukh) and unhappiness (dukh)?
Dadashri: The Atma does remain separate, but what good does that do for us? As long as the ego (ahamkar) is there, one experiences pleasure (sukh) and pain (dukh), and one does not like pain.
Questioner: But nothing happens to the Atma, does it? That is what I am asking.
Dadashri: This is how it is: If you had a gold guinea (old British coin), then no matter where you put it, it would not pick up rust. But if that guinea were lost, it is not the guinea that experiences unhappiness (dukh), but would you not experience unhappiness (dukh)? Similarly, the Atma does not experience unhappiness (dukh) at all; it is the ego that suffers in pain. When the ego goes away, you become Atma, and as long as the ego is there, you are not Atma.
Questioner: In that example, the guinea and I are separate, but in this, is it really separate like that?
Dadashri: Even this is separate. But you cannot see that. Just as you perceive that the guinea is separate, that is how 'we' see the Atma as being separate.
Questioner: So can we say that despite being in the body, the Atma is in moksha?
Dadashri: Yes, it is always free (mukta). But when 'we' give you this Gnan, it itself becomes aware of its own freedom. However, the Atma within, is indeed free; it has no unhappiness (dukh). But who experiences the unhappiness? The ego (ahamkar)! Once it is gone; the unhappiness is gone. It is the ego that has given rise to all this, it has detached itself from
