Jainism Abroad

Author(s): Pratap J Tolia
Publisher: Vardhaman Bharati International Foundation

Page 20

19
(Side 'B':) Certain belief that one has to act not only for himself but for the whole society. It may not be necessarily through miracles but through so many deeds. This is what Jainism wants to say -- one has to try for himself, as well as for others.
Dr. T.J. Salagia: Let us add this thing over here what Lord Mahavira said in his sermons - "Don't follow me, if you are going to follow me, there will always be love and affection and attachment and you will never reach your destination". So he said, "don't follow me but learn from me and then you will get perfection". It is said in Hindi - "Bhakthi Bhagwan ban jata hai", it means there is a possibility for a disciple to become God in a simpler form and preach from there and try to attain Moksha and reach a higher consciousness. So every individual soul, every individual person has a possibility to become God. A simple definition of God according to Jainism is "A God is a perfected human being". How many times we have heard everybody say," I'm not perfect". Once you become perfect you'll become a God - you'll be an allknowing and seeing person. That is how Mahavira and other Jain Tirthankaras attained "Nirvana'.
Dr. John Monelesco: The major, the most important action of Jainism philosophy appears to be "Thou shall not kill", yet you have to kill to survive, that's how nature constituted your body. There is a logical and emotional implication in the action, "Thou Shan't Kill". But you are supposed to kill in order to survive, therefore the goal of Moksha or Nirvana can never be attained, it can always be postponed. Therefore tell me: in your religion, in your Vedanta, how many Sadhus made it to Moksha? Dr. T.J. Salagia: According to scriptures, we have been told for so long that hundreds, thousands and millions of Sadhus have reached Moksha. Prof. Pratapkumar J. Toliya: I would like to clarify here - "ASAVA SE PARISAVA, PARISAVA SE ASAVA" - Whatever are the ways of sins, become the ways of Punyas or good deeds for the persons or the soul that is "awakened", i.e., going according to religion. That is why he will create a minimum of violence. Secondly, one remains awakened and consciously alert in the course of spiritual seeking and worldly life. Even if he has to indulge in little violence, that violence, doesn't come in the way of an awakened, realized, conscious soul. It does not create Karma, doesn't bind him. Even without human interference, some violence occurs naturally, in the whole cosmic order. That is why, the minimum violence indulged in by an individual, does not come in the way of the salvation. Thus salvation was attained by a number of people by this way of conscious awareness, awakening amidst the deeds of life.
Dr. John Monelesco: Well, I'll tell you something seems that we have a very convenient philosophy here-It's not just yours but free Hindu Philosophy-convenient to maintain social structure unchanged, convenient for the masters to rule their slaves. Christianity perceived according to Niches, this part of religion that could keep masses as slaves. When I look at some of your philosophical precepts which, talk of slavery in the sense of obedience etc, now, if we talk of Jainism, their controlling is even a much better principle, because by controlling their impulses, controlling their food intake, their beliefs, they don't eat. Therefore they can stop death, then the glory of starvation is- "You can reach Moksha because you do not eat". See, there is a psychological conflict between killing an animal or killing a plant for survival, so the people who want to get the Moksha Principle as fast as they can, will naturally do, as he says-by eating a minimum or not eating at all-Let'us say you have the chance of realizing Moksha, realizing the final light, Nirvana. At the same time you do exactly what the masters want you to do-not eat, therefore - When I look at the social fabric of India, with the millions of beings on a starvation diet, I say to myself," My God, what a lucky philosophy for the rulers, whether it is Jainism or Hinduism. Even if somebody turned up today in the 20th century and preached Hindu Philosophy he will become the greatest apostle of 20th century. Because he tells the people-"Don't eat, starve", will that solve the whole over-population and feeding problem of the world? Give me the answer.
We were discussing Jain Philosophy; I realize that for you up there, it is very difficult to follow some of the principles. I thought this could be essential view for us in India. When I studied all the ramifications of Hinduism, there's a lot of Hinduism that doesn't come across to the western mind. To them it seems logical, to us it doesn't, you have to make allowances for differentiation in mentality. On the other hand there are lots of Krishna followers over there who sort of praise their philosophy, I do not know whether they did it logically or emotionally, but they certainly believe deeply into what they are doing. So we have to respect their faith, we require looking at some of the aspects of Hindu philosophy, purely from the Western Philosophical outlook. The disparities will naturally come to mind. I tried to zero in on a couple of them and I still would like to hear the explanation of our guests concerning the matter of the "Opium of the People",