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[30th Pasyattapad] [167 Know / Thus until the non-existent / Thus Sohammakalp until Achyutaklap, Aveyakavimana, Anuttaravimana, Ishipbharaprithvi, Paramanu-pudgala, Dvipradeshik Skandha until Anantapradeshik Skandha / [1963 Pr.] Bhagavan! Does the Kevali know this Ratnaprabhaprithvi by shapes, reasons, comparisons, examples, colors, institutions, proofs, and incarnations, at the time he knows, he sees, and at the time he sees, he knows? [1963 U.] Gautama! This meaning (matter) is not possible (feasible). [Pr.] Bhagavan! For what reason is it said that the Kevali does not see this Ratnaprabhaprithvi by shapes until incarnations at the time he knows, and does not know at the time he sees? [U.] Gautama! What is concrete is knowledge, and what is abstract is perception, (therefore, at the time of concrete knowledge, abstract knowledge (perception) will not remain, similarly, at the time of abstract knowledge (perception), concrete knowledge will not be there. For this reason, O Gautama! It is said that the Kevali does not see at the time he knows, until he does not know / Similarly, one should know about the Sharkaraprabhaprithvi until the seventh earth below, and similarly (the statement) from the Saudharmakalp until the Achyutakalp, Aveyakavimana, Anuttaravimana, Ishipragbharaprithvi, Paramanu-pudgala, Dvipradeshik Skandha until Anantapradeshik Skandha (should be understood regarding knowing and seeing. That is, at the time the Kevali knows these, he does not see, and at the time he sees, he does not know). 1964. Kevali, O Bhagavan! Does he see this Ratnaprabhaprithvi by abstract forms, without reasons, without comparisons, without examples, without colors, without institutions, without proofs, and without incarnations, and does not know? [1664 U.] Yes, Gautama! The Kevali does not know this Ratnaprabhaprithvi by abstract forms until he sees it.